Return-Path: owner-irrigation-l@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:56:50 -0400
Reply-To: lenornst@pipeline.com
Sender: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
From: Leonard Ornstein 
Subject:      Re: [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

I went to the gcea (Green Country Environmental Associates) web pages,
as recommended below, by Alex Panov of Delta Magnetic Technologies, to
see the "evidence" for "Magnetic Fluid Conditioning":

I'm a scientist with expertise in chemical physics. I find the claims
for the proposed mechanism of the action of magnetic fields on water and
dissolved salts simply unbelievable; Frank Hartman's pseudoscience on
zeta potential and the ASHRE handbook notwithstanding.

I found MOST of the references listed, irrelevant to the question of the
effects of magnetic filelds on water solutions, most of the rest were
clearly biased and none were from prestigious refereed scientific
journals. I decided to do a quick AltaVista search  on "magnetic water
treatment". It returned hundreds of  URL's, mostly from manufacturers or
distributors of magnetic treatment machinery with typical hyped claims.

But it also returned an interesting review entitled "Magnetic Water and
Fuel Treatment: Myth, Magic, or Mainstream Science?, by Mike R. Powell,
a Chemical Engineer:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/powell.html

which gives a rather basic, fair (and laid back) review of the subject,
with a RELEVANT set of 33 literature references.

Powell's bottom line:

"Is there a beneficial effect of magnetc water treatment? Perhaps.

Is there sufficient evidence of a beneficial effect to warant spending
hundreds of dollars on a residential magnetic water treatment unit?
Unlikely. The understanding of magnetic water treatment must first be
developed to the point where the effects of magnetic treatment can be
reliably predicted and shown to be econimically attractive."

Go read the whole review and come to your own conclusions!

Len Ornstein

===========

From: Yossi Ingber 
Organization: Netafim
Subject:      Re: [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water -Reply
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

A small addition to a long discussion:
The Israeli Standard Institute conducted a 2 years research on the subject, they
did not  find any supportive results to the claims made by manufacturers on the
subject.
Yossi Ingbre / Engineering and Technical Support / Netafim

==============


>I pose the following questions to Kevin Maxson and Blair Geiesl,
>"Have you had anything to do with Magnetic Water Treatment"?
>"Have you taken a Magnetic Water Conditioner and given it a fair and
>unbiased trial in the lab or the field"?
>If you have you are then qualified to pass judgment.
>However if you haven't, on what do you base your judgment?
>I agree with Bo Poulsen,  Kevin you are a very qualified person in your
>field and I thought with those qualifications behind you would at least
>investigate to prove or disprove before blindly condemning.
>
>The role of "educated people" and the scientific community is to
>investigate the unknown with an open mind and to advance theories which
>can be tested and used to refine phenomenon into successful technology
>and not as is the case here, simply dismiss it.
>
>Gentlemen, I also suggest you visit www.gcea.com. you will get a wealth
>of information from the scientific community.
>
>A lot of emphasis is placed on being "scientifically validated", what
>many people seem to forget is that the final validation must come from
>the end user or customer.  If it does not work you will not sell to
>many, no matter how good a salesman you are. The customer has the final
>say what works not the academic world.
>
>Our Company is in this business for the long term, we are not as is
>often implied "in for a fast buck" and then disappear. We have sold
>thousands here in Australia, and we would not be in existence if this
>technology did not perform, that gentlemen is the cold hard fact of the
>real world.



Return-Path: owner-irrigation-l@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
References: <199808051817.NAA00038@vger.cpnet.net>
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 04:23:36 -0400
Reply-To: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
Sender: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
From: frank hartman 
Subject:      Re: [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water -Reply
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

    Attached is a list of a few of over several hundred references on magnetic
treatment of water. it is not just magnetic treatment however. It will work as
well with plasma, elctrostatics, radio frequency and ultrasonics.Anything that
will increase the electronegative charge of colloids in suspension to the -45mv
range will do it.
Note that the ASHRAE handbook recognizes it. BecAUSE THE EMPASIS IS ON IONIC
RATHER THAN COLLOIDAL CHEMISTRY the whole agricultural and water treatment
movement is woefully ignorant.
In general the problem is not will it work. The problem is that is doesn't
always work
with magnets and since the principles are poorly understood, when it doesn't
work. what do you do. Most of the pure research stdies i have looked at are
flawed in that they
1. used the wrong strength
2, /didn't understand pole placement and orientation
3.Didn't look at the laminar flow boundary layer problem in thier setup.
4. Didn't know enough to use and electrophoresis cell or some calibrated
streaming potential device to measure surface charge on colloids.
Some months ago i wrote extensively on this subject and Richard has the whole
thread somewhere in the archive. He could refer you to the location.
I also suggest you look at the ZETA-Rod site for another method of achieving
the same thing. it has a decent explanation of zeta potenial. Also
info@zetameter will send you a free booklet on zeta potential.


[Content of attached mail available at http://........?? ]


Return-Path: owner-irrigation-l@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:28:28 +1000
Reply-To: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
Sender: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
From: Alex Panov 
Organization: Delta Magnetic Technologies
Subject:      [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

I pose the following questions to Kevin Maxson and Blair Geiesl,
"Have you had anything to do with Magnetic Water Treatment"?
"Have you taken a Magnetic Water Conditioner and given it a fair and
unbiased trial in the lab or the field"?
If you have you are then qualified to pass judgment.
However if you haven't, on what do you base your judgment?
I agree with Bo Poulsen,  Kevin you are a very qualified person in your
field and I thought with those qualifications behind you would at least
investigate to prove or disprove before blindly condemning.

The role of "educated people" and the scientific community is to
investigate the unknown with an open mind and to advance theories which
can be tested and used to refine phenomenon into successful technology
and not as is the case here, simply dismiss it.

Gentlemen, I also suggest you visit www.gcea.com. you will get a wealth
of information from the scientific community.

A lot of emphasis is placed on being "scientifically validated", what
many people seem to forget is that the final validation must come from
the end user or customer.  If it does not work you will not sell to
many, no matter how good a salesman you are. The customer has the final
say what works not the academic world.

Our Company is in this business for the long term, we are not as is
often implied "in for a fast buck" and then disappear. We have sold
thousands here in Australia, and we would not be in existence if this
technology did not perform, that gentlemen is the cold hard fact of the
real world.




Return-Path: owner-irrigation-l@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
References: <35AD843B.B8DE07C8@inter.net.il>
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:23:33 +1000
Reply-To: wanaka@cyber.net.au
Sender: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
From: Ed Biel 
Organization: Wanaka Orchard
Subject:      [IR-L] Iron in irrigation water
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

Does anyone have information regarding the possibility of removing iron
slime and scale from irrigation water from a bore by using  a flux field
generated by three coils placed around the bore discharge pipe?   A
salesman is trying to sell me one such device which he claims will
remove the sludge and any scale and convert the soluble iron into its
elemental state, preventing precipitation for up to 7 days after
treatment.

Their sales pitch is briefly: "....generate the required waveforms
through two antenae wound in opposite directions around the water supply
pipe.   These signals generate a strong flux field through the coil,
pipe and water and modify the calcium carbonate (and iron)
nuclei....modifies the nature of the electrical charges and the
ionisation effect thus alters the growth rate and pattern of the
limescale (and presumably the iron slime)....the signal travels up to 30
meters in either direction ionising all that passes through it..."

Is there any science which backs this up?   Does anyone know of such
equipment in use anywhere which works?  Any comments please?

Any help/advice would be appreciated as I don't want to waste my hard
earned money on something which won't work.



Ed  Biel
Fruit Grower
Oakdale.  N.S.W.  Australia

========================================


Return-Path: owner-irrigation-l@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
References: <199808051817.NAA00038@vger.cpnet.net>
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:27:25 -0400
Reply-To: bpoulsen@bellsouth.net
Sender: "IRRIGATION-L List for 'irrigation theory and practice'"
              
From: Bo Poulsen 
Subject:      Re: [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water -Reply
To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE

Mr.  Geisel

You can find a good list of sources at www.gcea.com.  Please note that yes I am
a salesman,  but that I also worked with traditional softeners for numerous
years and that I was also sceptical,  even of the research,  in the beginning.
But I kept an open mind and was only truly convinced when our company installed
this technology and I saw the results ( note this was over a two year period).
I am also reffering you to competitor web sites that have the info you
request.  Please find that not all companies in our industry are selling a
product that works and that I would hope that an independent testing facility
would set standards for magnetic and electro-magnetic scale treatment devices.

Note to Mr.  Maxson.  You can judge the technology,  but I would ask you to
refrain from judging me as just a salesman with no scientific background.
Blair Geisel wrote:

> Bo Poulsen,
>
> I support Mr Maxon's view that these magnetic and electro magnetic devices
> are not effective. The onus is on you to prove efficacy.   In you email,
> you listed several reputable organizations that have conducted "positive
> tests".  Would you provide a list of the journals (including dates, authors
> and tittles) where the results of these independent tests are published?
>
> Blair Geiesl
> Gaia Consulting
> Box 314
> Portage, MB   R1N 3B5
> Ph. 204-267-2665
> Fax. 204-267-2715
>
> ----------
> > From: Bo Poulsen 
> > To: IRRIGATION-L@LISTSERV.GMD.DE
> > Subject: Re: [IR-L] Iron in Irrigation Water -Reply
> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 9:27 AM
> >
> > I find it a great shame that Mr. Maxson has taken such a totalitarian and
> > narrow minded view on the treatment of water with magnets and electro
> > magnetic treatment.  He must have been sleaping through his college class
> on
> > the Zeta Potential of water.  And just because the treatment is not
> > recognized by the AWWA or WQA which rely on member support from
> traditional
> > water treatment companies (they're not biased) does not mean that
> reputable
> > organizations have not tested it.  e.g.  Cranfield University  ( a world
> > leader in irrigation research)  has done numerous positive tests.
> > Universities in Israel and Russia,  NASA,  etc.  With over 100,000
> > installations in Europe.
> > I find it sad that a man who calls himself educated can take such a
> strong
> > stance against a product that he has never seen working in the field or a
> > lab.  I hope that people like Mr.  Maxson will take another look at the
> > science behind reputable magnetic treatment products and stop touting
> salt
> > and chemicals as the only way to treat water hardness.
> >
> > Bo Poulsen
> >
> > KEVIN MAXSON wrote:
> >
> > > Mr. Panov has obviously never taken college chemistry.  His claims are
> > > impossible.  Even if one could "loosen" the bonds between atoms in a
> > > molecule, they would just slam back together later.  Furthermore, as
> > > everyone who works in the water industry knows hardness in water is
> > > caused by disolved calcium and magnesium measured as calcium
> > > carbonate.  The ONLY way to soften water is to remove the hardness,
> > > either chemically or physically.  Consult any water treatment manual or
> > > the American Water Works Association.
> > > I have been discussing these kinds of products for years.  I still have
> > > never seen any research done by a credible organization that proves
> > > that they work.  You will never see these used at large water treatment
> > > plants, and thats because the people who run them know better.  I have
> > > only seen salesman claiming these devices work.
> > > Let present my credentials so that you know where I derive my opinion.
> I
> > > have a BS in Civil Engineering, specializing in water and wastewater.
> I
> > > am currently getting my Masters degree in the same.  I am registered in
> > > the State of California to practice same.  I hold a Grade 3 Water
> > > Treatment Operator Licence.
> > >
> > > >>> Alex Panov  08/04/98 03:33pm >>>
> > > Dear Ed,
> > > I can not tell you anything about the unit you describe as I have not
> > > come across it.
> > > However we make a unit that successfully combats iron build up , the
> > > Delta Magnetic Water Conditioner,  a far less complicated unit, non
> > > electric, non electronic, non chemical and because of the type of
> > > magnets we use, will last indefinitely.
> > >
> > > We manufacture the Delta in Newcastle, NSW, Australia, and are having
> > > a
> > > lot of success in stopping Iron Scale problems (as you describe). The
> > > Delta stops the build up of iron and breaks down existing iron scale
> > > deposits in pumps, piping, irrigation equipment including micro,
> > > drippers and drip tape.
> > > A new model delta has been successful in preventing iron build up in
> > > submersible pumps.
> > >
> > > OK, but how does it work? many ask.
> > > A simplified explanation is:-  When water passes through the intense
> > > focussed magnetic field created by the Delta the electrical charge of
> > > the electrons in the water molecule is changed, this loosens the
> bonding
> > > between the two hydrogen atoms of the water molecule  reducing the
> > > surface tension of the water and causing the water to act softer. The
> > > effect on any minerals in the water (i.e. calcium and iron), is to
> > > change the way they nucleate to form crystals which build to form the
> > > scale that causes so many problems. Instead of nucleating and forming a
> > > scale build up on whatever surface the water is passing over, the
> > > molecules  of the minerals in the water  now nucleate on each other and
> > > form only minute crystals, so small to be considered still in solution.
> > >
> > > I question the claim of preventing precipitation of the iron for up to
> > > seven days after treatment, my experience is magnetic water treatment
> > > will accelerate precipitation of iron, yet stop it from settling as a
> > > scale and blocking smaller outlets like you have in drippers and drip
> > > tape.
> > >
> > > I am familiar with the iron problem in your area South West of Sydney.
> > > We have successfully treated water with high levels of iron in the
> > > Picton - Lakesland area where iron oxide was blocking filters and
> > > dripper tape. The filters after treatment are remaining cleaner and the
> > > tape is no longer blocking.
> > >
> > > This technology has been around for many years, and yes there is
> > > scientific information from Europe, the old Soviet Russia, Israel and
> > > USA that backs Magnetic Water Treatment or Ionization.
> > >
> > > Ed, if you would like more information e-mail me directly at the above
> > > e-mail address.
> > >
> > > Alex Panov